What Does "Child Support" Cover?

[DallasLDY]

I am the stepmother, and unfortunately, the father and mother (who were never married) never had a formal agreement.  My husband has always paid what the law says he should pay, AND we pay in full for the child's insurance premiums.

The mother has always told my husband he owes her for 1/2 of the other medical bills (co-pays and things insurance didn't cover), half of the school supplies, half of whatever she wants.  I have finally convinced my husband that this slow bleeding has to stop.  I want a court ruling. 

Until the time that they actually take it to court, what can I legally refuse to pay her for?  We just refused to pay for 1/2 of school supplies this year, telling her she needs to take it out of the child support.  She is getting really nasty because of this, and is now asking to see his W-2 and threatening things.  She has never allowed this to be the cordial relationship it should be.  But good, let's go to court.

Anyway, can I also refuse to pay for the co-pays and other small things she wants us to pay for? 

She also decided one day to get him braces without discussing it with us.  Just told us our 1/2 was $2,600.  We paid because we don't want our (his) child to suffer, but I don't feel like she should be able to do this.

Am I going to get in trouble later if I refuse to pay these additional expenses?

[hadenough40]

Dallas...

You question about what CS covers will more than likely never be answered.

But I'm confused.  There has never been any kind of agreement between your husband and the mom but your husband pays what the law says. 

Do payments go through a CS agency?

I could be way off base, but the way I'm reading your post, your husband just gives the mom money...which will be considered gifts.  Ummm...I'm hoping this is NOT the case, because if it is, you guys just opened yourselves up for a major, major financial setback.

[jimmy eaches]

wow,
this is scary. real scary. this could be a huge downfall. never, and i mean never, enter into any agreement with the ex without it being on paper. this is set-up for failure. she can now go into court and say that you have not been paying a dime on anything. i hope that you have done your homework and kept copies of all the bills or can access them somehow. this will be your saving grace. welcome to the fight of your life. now heres where it gets interesting. she goes in there saying you haven't been paying a dime. you show proof, you now have her for perjury in the same court. kinda cool , huh. if it is a sworn statement, which it will be, she has just lied to the court saying she had no proof of the bills. make sure you have all you ducks in a row, and good luck. i hope this helps, join me at myspace.com/mddadsdeserverights

[hadenough40]

Dallas, we happen to be going through the braces routine ourselves, but we received notification prior to the braces being put on.

Does your husband's insurance cover any part of the braces?  I'd also have him contact the orthodontist billing department to receive a quote or the statement of account.  Just because your husband carries the insurance doesn't mean the ex didn't also have some kind of dental plan in place.  You may have paid half of the full price when in reality she did not pay half.  In addition if your husbands insurance will cover some part of orthodontics he will need to give the billing department his insurance info so they can submit the claim.  You or the ex would be refunded the difference.  You need to follow up on this and get the documentation.

[DallasLDY]

Thank you, you all are very helpful.  I thought I was sick to my stomach before, now I'm really worried.

Uh-oh.  You all read it right - they have never had an agreement, nothing ever in writing.  He has just paid since the day the now 12 year old was born.  Paid and paid and paid.  For anything and everything, above the 20% that Texas requires.

Unfortunately, I couldn't convince him to insist that it was included in the child support until just this week.  He is finally fed up with her demands, her using his son to get to him, her talking badly about him in front of his child, her pulling the child out of school to go and do fun things when his grades aren't very good, and the hundreds of other things that she does that are harmful to the child or done just to spite him or get more money out of him.

We do always write the child's name on the bottom of the checks, and it is always a check.  So we can get copies of the checks as proof that he has been paying.

I thought this was a good thing - that he was paying without anything telling him he had to.  He was taking responsibility for his child, and I thought the courts would look kindly upon that.

Maybe I should just make peace with her and give her the extra money she wants right now to appease her so that we don't have to take it to court.  I mean, we've done this for 12 years, surely we can handle another 6.

About the braces, we do have copies of the bill, and of the credit card she secured for the whole amount.  We wrote the check to the credit card company rather than to her, and wrote the child's name on the bottom of the check with "braces" for proof later.  She has said she will send me a copy of my posted payment, too.

Because he is not a dependent (he lives with her and we only see him Wednesdays and every other weekend), we have to secure outside insurance for the child.  It's very expensive, but at least I can deduct it from the amount of my husband's gross pay, according to Texas family law.

I have another issue I want to post about her.  I hope I get responses like this. 

[hadenough40]

Making peace is fine, but I would let the chips fall where they may with regards to CS.  It needs to be a legal arrangement.  You stand to loose a lot due to the gifts you gave the mom, but with proof (and your husband WILL get copies of his checks and receipts for the last 12 years) things may go just as Jimmy suggests.

Just because the child turns 18 does not mean CS stops.

Becuase of the above statement, your husband needs to get this all legalized NOW.  Agreements need to be made about handling of secondary school and support when the child enters secondary school, etc.  Letting this go and counting the days until the child reaches 18 is NOT what your husband should be doing.

Back to the braces...

Just because you paid a valid bill does not mean the ex did not submit this claim to an insurance company on her own and got reimbursement after making the full payment.  In addition, if your husbands insurance has any type of dentistry coverage, a portion of the braces MAY be covered.  It will cost you nothing to call the orthodontist, provide the insurance information and ask them to submit a claim.  Or call the orthodontist, ask for a detailed bill for your use in submitting the claim to your insurance company. 

FYI:  When the claim is submitted to your insurance company (by your husband), here is what will happen...

1)  You submit the claim
2)  An explanation of benefits (EOB) will be received
3)  The EOB will have a check included as reimbursement for whatever the insurance covers or
4)  The EOB will have denial codes (meaning the claim is not being paid for specific reasons)

If an EOB is received with denial codes, read them carefully.  There are a number of reasons it could have denied which have nothing to do with NOT being covered by the plan.  Some of the reasons:

1)  Diagnosis or procedure codes are wrong.  If this is the case, more than likely the braces are cosmetic only, but it's worth trying to get the ortho to change there diagnosis to medical reasons so you can resubmit the claim.
2)  Duplicate claim.  This means the claim was previously submitted by someone and you need to find out by whom and what the EOB stated the first time around.  You can get this information by calling your insurance company and speak to a representative.
3)  No payment can be made because another insurer has previously made payment.  This means two things...a)  you can still resubmit the claim but a copy of the EOB from the other insurance carrier needs to go along with your submission and b) the ex definitely had some type of insurance and submitted a claim to them, making your insurance secondary.  If this is the case, you need to ask the ex (in writing) for a copy of the EOB she received so you can resubmit your claim with that copy. 

Good Luck

[DallasLDY]

Oh, I didn't know that about the CS not ending at 18.  I thought it was over at that time.

I will resubmit the braces to the insurance company.  Thank you for that advice.

Question:  Should we go directly to a CS agency and start submitting payments to them before an agreement is reached?  Or should we hire an attorney, get paperwork drawn up and present it to her?  We pay her every other week, so I don't want to stop paying and get in worse trouble.

A few years back, when she wanted the child to attend a school that was in our district instead of where she lived, she signed and had notarized, a piece of paper stating that she and my husband had joint custody - 50/50.  Will that help me in any way?

[hadenough40]

I don't suggest this too often either, but...

Find a lawyer that understands YOUR situation, not family law...YOUR situation.

In a way you're in deep doo-doo because of the way CS was paid...or in the mind of a nasty CP, the way CS was NOT paid.  An attorney that understands YOUR situation is going to use EVERYTHING to keep the CS Nazi's and the CP from hunting you down and the 50/50 paper may just be the key.  I'm going to give a worse case scenario so you understand.

The CP says you haven't paid support for the entire 12 years and you have no proof that you did and the court is feeling pity for the poor mommy.  That affadavit that was notarized is the only and LAST piece of legal documentation for 12 years, so since that date of that affadavit your husband...big bad daddy has had 50/50 custody of the 12 year old.  If presented properly, arrears won't be as damaging and may possibly cease to exist.

This is just my thinking on the matter and how I would be looking at this.

SO, my advice is to start calling attorneys NOW.  Call after hours to smaller local firms.  My husband and I talked to several attorneys free of charge when we called smaller firms after hours and a workaholic answered the phone.  That little itty bitty scrap of paper that your husband had tucked away could be a gold mine as long as the entire picture is approached properly...which is why you need to consult with possibly several lawyers.

Until you secure an attorney...which will be in the next week or two, pay exactly as you have been.  Never a word about an attorney or modifying CS.  Once you actually have an attorney, he/she will advise you about the CS arrangements.

I apologize for the sudden turn also but I'm wondering if a holy war is necessary...

Did your husband ever have a problem before now?  I still think he will be better off to have this all formally legalized.  But for 12 years he's paid CS and never complained and for 12 years the ex never used this fact against him.  Also, even though you state that things have always been less than amicable, it sounds like she was "fair" to a degree.  I'm sure that for the last 12 years she's been aware that legally the way she was receiving CS would be detrimental to your husband, but has NEVER used it as a weapon.  In all honesty your husband requesting that things be more formal with CS lead to what even your attorney is going to ask for...W-2's. 

So really the decision is to try and make peace and at the same time legalize the CS without taking a bath or...

take it to court, which could get really ugly for EVERYONE, including your stepson.   

[DallasLDY]

The CP has been okay with the payments.  Unfortunately, she asks for half of every other penny that she spends on the child and my husband has paid her.  I'm the person who wanted to put a stop to that. 

I haven't described all of the garbage we have been put through.  I am pushing a formal, legal agreement because I want to put a stop to her insisting that we pay for every additional cent she spends on the child outside of food and clothing.  And extracurricular - well that's all on us.  She says that is my husband's "deal" to pay for any sports or events outside the home. 

We have no problem paying her what we owe her, that is my husband's obligation to his child.  She is a bitter woman who hates men (not a lesbian) and has only dated 2 other people for short periods of time in the 12 years since the child was born.  I'm only telling this to let you know what we are dealing with. 

While I don't believe she would ever say that he didn't pay, I never know.  She surprises me daily with the new decisions she makes or demands she places on us.  Her interests seem to lie in 'getting' my husband rather than doing what is right for their child.

Unfortunately, when I refused to pay her the additional money for the school supplies this time, she requested a copy of his W-2 and said that we need to alter CS payments.  We had forgotten about a bonus my husband received last year, so we would owe her slightly more for last year than we paid her.  Should we send the copy of the W-2 along with the additional money?  And then behind the scenes get the lawyer? 

I'm just afraid that if we get the lawyer without showing her the W-2 and increasing the payment, she will question it before we get something in place.

[hadenough40]

Okay...

You stated that you pay what the state says you should pay.  How did you figure that out?  I'm asking because in NJ expenses for BOTH parents are one of the factors used when calculating CS...as is salary, cost of insurance, childcare costs, activities are included also.  The number of overnights is what determines the proper worksheet to use.

So, if you simply asked for a more formal arrangement that included the extras, then a copy of the W-2 would be needed.  But the ex should be providing hers also.

If you feel this is something that can be worked out privately, I suggest you start doing the research.  Get the CS guidelines for your state and print out the worksheets.  Set up an appointment with her to sit down and discuss the numbers.  Ask her to bring her financials.  Then, find out how to legally file the agreement.

Most importantly make sure the ex signs some type of affadavit stating that you husband has paid CS in the amount of $______ per week since 1996.  And that he has never been in arrears.  In addition, there needs to be something about the additional amounts he's paid.

My fear is that it sounds like the ex has never been held accountable for ANYTHING before.  More than likely if your husband asks her to sit down to discuss a CS agreement, she will be fine with that...until he asks her to bring her financials.

Double check the guidelines in your state for CS, but I don't believe your husband has to provide his W-2 TO HER.  It will be needed at some point but if she is not willing to work with him, then you find an attorney and the information is given to your attorney for handling.

Don't give or mention the W-2 to the ex until you decide which way your going with this.

I also think, that with the can of worms you opened up, spending a couple thousand on an attorney could save you tens of thousands in the end.

[DallasLDY]

The problem with the situation is that she is not a logical person who will ever sit down and discuss anything with the father.  She begins to scream if you try to discuss anything.  But I will talk to him about trying.

I looked up the Texas Family Code, Section 154 to calculate the amount we owe her.  It says 20% of his gross, and that is what we paid.  Gross being net minus taxes and insurance.  She has let the boy stay at home alone after school for several years, so there is no child care.  It doesn't say anything about the cp's expenses or the number of overnights.

Unfortunately, I had forgotten about a couple of bonuses he has gotten for the last few years, so we did not pay her for those.  It's not much, but I'm sure she will want that.

My husband has resigned himself to not working with her, but I think what you suggested might be the best for all.  If he TRIES to get her to make it formal, by signing something stating he has always paid and is not in arrears, etc., then we might end up being okay.

We opened this up because we wanted something formal so she couldn't keep asking for money for everything, and so that we could get something formal stating that we could have more visitation - like a month in the summer or every other full week.  But she has blown us off every time we've requested that.  Said she would think about it and then never metioned it again, or kept telling us she was thinking about it.   

But we will try it this way.

I really appreciate your help and advice on this.  I want to do what is right, but stop this constant funding of her lifestyle.  I just want to know what to expect for expenses, not to be hit up for $50 - $200 every other week in addition to what we are paying now.

[hadenough40]

Although I always state that divorce mediators shouldn't be used...in this case (even though a divorce is not at issue), it may be worth the extra money if they handle CS issues.

While I believe mediation may take care of your issues as stated, there are alot of things you may not be thinking of.  A lawyer might be your best bet.  Even if nothing goes to court, I do believe your husband needs to talk to someone.

Your husband wants a change in parenting time.  Mediators can definitely help on this and more than likely even if you do have an attorney, parenting time issues will go to mediation. 

But the reason I keep stressing that he should talk to an attorney, comes back to your statement about CS ending at age 18.  This means that you really don't see the big picture.  The future ramifications are numerous as are the reasons you could continue paying CS for many years after age 18.

There were things done outside the "system" and if you are bucking being nickeled and dimed now, just wait until this kid decides to go to an OUT OF STATE college.  If your husband waits until then to LEGALIZE things...OMG...it will be a disaster.

[DallasLDY]

An unbelievable turn of events.  because I ignored her request for 'proof' - the W-2 - she has sent me a groveling e-mail and asked to discuss it with me.  She says she doesn't want to be unfair, and wants to know how we want to proceed.

My thought is to lay it out on the line - tell her the loose arrangement is what is causing the problem.  Ask her if we can get a signed, notarized agreement stating that we will continue to pay her 20% after taxes and insurance, that the father is not in arrears and has paid timely to date, and to spell out exactly what child support pays for.  I also want it to spell out what child support covers, and that any expenses outside of that definition will be discussed before being spent.  And finally, that we would like more time with the child.

If she is okay with this continuing this way, will a signed and notarized agreement, without going through the legal system, still cover my husband later?

She doesn't have the respect for secondary schooling that we do.  We have known since the first day that we would be paying for college.  We discuss this with the child all the time - where he may go, what he needs to do, etc.  We will find any way we can to let him go to a good school.  So that part is not a problem.  We have every intention of picking up that expense.

[hadenough40]

Someone else here might be able to answer that better.  It's not a bad thing to have the agreements formalized and notarized but you want to be sure that it would hold up in the future.

[hadenough40]

I didn't have much time earlier, but with regards to college education...

just because you will gladly pay for your stepsons higher education still does not mean that CS will cease.

Also, just because you pay the bills does not mean the CP has to deal with you and I'm not sure why she would sit with you to discuss the fathers CS obligation.  I pay all the bills here and do the household budget.  However the CP deals directly with my husband and my husband deals directly with her.  I may write a check or get the paperwork together, but she never deals with me, nor is she expected to. 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but my mind keeps telling me that you REALLY aren't seeing the big picture and REALLY don't understand how horribly wrong things can go.  I just keep thinking that you are asking for a world of hurt in the future by handling things so loosely.

It could be that you really and truly do have a CP that is not just in it for the money and that I have been jaded by our dealings with our CP.  So, my jaded mind sees a trap being laid in which YOU will be lynched.

I'm sorry to be such a party pooper.